Workplace Wellness - with Michelle Reid, Director of Performance Culture and Delivery, IOM

Two big themes come through loud and clear to us in our interview with this week's guest:

PURPOSE and ASKING

Michelle Reid is Director of Performance Culture and Delivery at the Edinburgh-based Institute of Occupational Medicine (IOM). 

Having progressed within her 7 years at IOM from HR Manager to a seat on the Board, Michelle is clearly an utterly authentic 'people person'.   

We loved the way she doesn't just talk theory.  Practically all her points are illustrated, sensitively, by real-life stories from life at IOM.

Upon joining the IOM, Michelle asked every member of staff (around 100 at the time) just FOUR questions.  They may be simple but their answers were like gold-dust.  The answers provided the IOM's first people plan.  And they could create yours' too.

Michelle's thoughts and tips are, as always, interspersed with analogies to the world of shepherding brought alive by Chris, Head Shepherd and co-founder of Raising the Baa.

Questions?  We love 'em!  Simply message us through any of our social channels or email caroline@raisingthebaa.com and we'll ensure it is answered in a future episode or privately by one of our guest experts whichever is most suitable.

Enjoy - and thank ewe for listening 😊🎧

Connect with the speakers via LinkedIn:
Michelle Reid - Director of Performance Culture and Delivery, Institute of Occupational Medicine
Caroline Palmer - Top Dog and co-founder, Raising the Baa
Chris Farnsworth - Head Shepherd and co-founder, Raising the Baa & author of 'Sheep Shepherd Dog - Building a Magnificent Team Around You'

What are your main team challenges and desires? Maybe we can help?
Book in a 15-minute Exploratory Call now and let's see.

Transcript

Michelle (00:03):

Today is the fastest and most volatile the world has ever been, but today is also the slowest and least volatile the world will ever be, because every day change is inevitable, and that volatility and that complexity is going to be there all of the time.

Caroline (00:20):

Hello, and thank you for tuning in to Sheep Dip, the podcast from Raising the Baa, global leaders in team building with sheep. So workplace wellness, what does it all mean? It's such a huge topic, which is why for this series of Sheep Dip, we have invited a really wide variety of guests who are experts in their particular field. They're from the corporate side as well as consultancies, and they'll be sharing their insights and giving you some truly practical tips on how you can improve your own workplace wellness. Feel free to join in the conversation on socials using the hashtag workplace wellness. But meanwhile, let's get on with the show with your hosts: Chris Farnsworth, who's our Head Shepherd, the co-founder of the business with myself, Caroline Palmer. Enjoy the show.

Caroline (01:10):

Today. We are delighted to be with Michelle Reid, who is People and Operations Director at the Institute of Occupational Medicine, and it's in the beautiful city of Edinburgh. So hi Michelle. Welcome.

Michelle (01:20):

Thank you. I'm absolutely delighted to be here.

Caroline (01:23):

So tell us, I'll be perfectly honest, I hadn't heard of the Institute of Occupational Medicine before we were introduced, and I don't think Chris had either. And we've now been sort of reading about all the amazing work you do. Perhaps you could first of all just tell us what it is the Institute does, and then more about your role within it.

Michelle (01:40):

So don't worry about not knowing who we are. We are a small and mighty charitable organisation based in Edinburgh. As you say, we've done some amazing stuff, but very few people have heard to us. And part of what we're doing these days is actually around showcasing who we are and what we're about. So the Institute of Occupational Medicine or IOM as we tend to go by, because it's easier on the tongue, we specialise in improving the health of people either in their workplace and in the wider environment. So the easy way that I describe it is that we want you to live a happy and healthier life without suffering from any form of workplace or environmental injury or illness. So the research that we do is about how we can investigate and research and look into challenges that can affect you while you're at work or in the environment.

(02:37):

And also what are the mitigations that can be put in place, or the things that can be put in place to either eradicate those risks or to mitigate them as far as practical. So, you know, things like the design of physical workplaces, the things that employers can do to look after their employees, whether it's human factors, health and wellbeing, environmental exposures, air monitoring, all of these kind of things. So our business operates in kind of two halves. We've got the research that we do into wider issues, topics that we do in partnership with other organisations or government institutions or global groups, whoever that may be. And then we have the consultancy side of the business where we partner with and sell our services to organisations to help them look after their people in their work. But we are an independent charitable institution. We don't get any core funding from anyone, so that anything that we do is very much independent, completely trusted and can't be bought or bribed in any way, shape or form.

Caroline (03:41):

And for you, what's your role within it?

Michelle (03:44):

So I joined the organisation five years ago, and when I joined, I came in as HR Manager. So the CEO and the FD at the time were looking to bring on a full-time HR Manager to help them with some transformational change that they wanted to do. So I very quickly when I joined, realised that actually all I had to do was to unlock the voice of people and connect it with the board themselves. A lot of people had been working with the organisation for a long time. We had a skills challenge that was coming down the track because our average age was nearly 50. Our average tenure was over 15 years at that time. Everybody kind of loved what they were doing, but actually there was no succession. There was no kind of thinking about how are we going to continue the organisation on.

(04:34):

And also people were, for want of a better word, institutionalised because they hadn't really worked anywhere else before or had kind of grown up in the organisation and didn't really recognise that there were things that we could be doing better, more efficiently. You know, we could be using technology to our advantage and actually getting rid of some of the resource heavy stuff that people didn't like doing to then unlock time for the stuff that they were doing. So I very quickly, after about a year and a half, was then promoted onto the board as People Director. Now I'm People and Operations Director, so I have a hand in unlocking the potential of our people to realise commercial success. Because ultimately for any organisation with a house, you know, you're just a set of bricks and mortar. If you have a house or you're just a name, if you're a remote entity, there's no personality or structure within that. It's the people that then make that. So for me, it's about creating an environment where people can come and perform at their best, where they understand how valued they are, they understand the value that they bring, but they also understand what value they receive back because that is what then enables you to be successful and to deliver the best for your clients in whatever way that that would be.

Caroline (05:47):

And so for you, who are your clients then? If you're not a member organisation, who would you define your clients as then?

Michelle (05:54):

It's an interesting question because they are many. So we work with the construction industry, we work with oil and gas, we work with retailers. You know, there are lots of different organisations that we work with and for. We work with NHS Trusts and private hospitals, all of these kind of things. So it depends on what it is that people need for us to do. So if it's workplace protection, it's healthcare ventilation and occupational hygiene services. For some of the lab clients, it's about analysing samples and providing information on what they provide for us. And that can be anybody small or large. In terms of our charitable or our research work, then we could be working with the government or we could be working with other groups that are involved in researching various different things.

Chris (06:40):

So it just reminds me actually, you do exactly what shepherds do. A good shepherd will look after the sheep. A poor shepherd will allow the sheep to dictate what the shepherd needs to do. So either you run sheep, or sheep run you. And it's a choice. And to keep them in that safe growing space where they're fit and well. It's really our aim, as shepherds, that's exactly what we do.

Michelle (07:08):

You're absolutely a hundred percent right. And I remember about four years ago, I think it was, I went to go and see a gentleman called Bob Chapman. And he is a very well renowned CEO in America. So I think at the time when I saw him, he was ranked as the number three best CEO in the world. And he was doing a talk with the Scottish Leadership Institute. But when he was talking, it was something that he said that really resonated with me. And it completely chimed with what you just said there. Leadership is a privilege and you are in service of the people within your charge, and they are someone's precious son or precious daughter. Therefore, you have a duty to make sure that they are able to perform at their best and bring their gifts to work.

(08:02):

But he said that's not about making them happy, that's not about giving them everything that they want because that might not be right for them. It's about enabling them to understand how they should behave, how they need to perform, and how they can grow. Sometimes that means difficult conversations. Sometimes that means moving them on because they're no longer right. Sometimes that means patting them on the head or celebrating successes that they may have. And it'll be different for different people, but it's creating an environment where people understand that and that they can be the best they can be. And it's exactly as you've said from a shepherd's standpoint. I never thought about it in that term.

Caroline (08:41):

This series, all about workplace wellness, workplace wellbeing, I'm not quite sure what the difference is. There was a debate on that on LinkedIn last week. I think it is all about looking after your people and as you've just been alluding to there, what part of your role would you say is directed towards that specific area? The wellbeing of your people? Or do you see it in such a broad way that you can't really say, well, it's this particular part?

Michelle (09:09):

So I think the latter. So you're right. There's so much debate out there, whether it's on LinkedIn, whether it's at conferences, whether it's on articles around what's wellness, what's wellbeing, happiness, all of those kind of things. And I think for me it's really about the environment that you create for people. So there's a few things. One: what do you stand for as an organisation and what are you all about? Because that enables people to then be connected with your cause or your purpose. And when people are connected with purpose and cause they are then able and want to perform well in the environments that they're in. It's what do they need to perform well? And for some people that will be somewhere to sit and work, the right technology, the right equipment, it might be the access to people to give them advice or guidance.

(09:59):

It might be support for when they need it most in a crisis it might be free tea and coffee, it might be a parking space. It could be anything, right? The most important thing is that you are very much aware of and can articulate your cause and your purpose for your organisation. You then have a structure in your organisation that people understand. So the foundations are very clear. So what are the baselines? What do you pay people, what benefits do you give them? What sort of facilities do they have? All of these kind of things. And you know, for our organisation, it's very important that we have showers and changing facilities because some of the people might be out on site, they might be in the lab doing various different tests and things like that. We've got free tea and coffee that we offer for people, we get milk in so that they can have their breakfast and we've got areas where they can sit and they can socialise and things like that.

(10:54):

And while I talk about those ones, those are kind of fundamentals. So you need to understand what fundamentally you want to have for your people in terms of a baseline structure. Then it's actually around what are your policies, your systems, and your processes that people can engage with and understand so that they can perform well. And then it's really around, well, what else do they want to enhance or they need to enhance their experience of your organisation and their delivery for your organisation. So for me, wellness, wellbeing, health all sits fundamental to that core purpose I have, which is unlocking the value of people to realise commercial success. Because if people are well, they are looked after, then they will perform well and they will feel like they have made a difference.

(11:44):

And they're intertwined for me. You know, as an example, this morning I had a focus group with some people who were doing some work around our pay review. So for us working in a recession just now, yes we would love to give everyone a recession-busting pay increase, but we just can't because we'd bankrupt ourselves. You know, we're a charitable organisation. There's not a huge amount of money going around, but we do want to invest in people. So we've been doing some focus groups with people to say, what matters to you? What would you want? What kind of things could we do? Here's things that we're thinking about. And really just capturing information, insights and ideas from people so that we can then make informed decisions that yes, might not please everyone, but that's impossible. But what it will do is it enables us to say: you said, we listened, we've gathered all of the insights, here is what we're doing for you, for the best. And someone said to me this morning, oh, you know, it just feels like we're on a treadmill just now. There's so much on the go and there's loads and loads that we're expected to do more and more and more of. And I said right, I'm just going to stop you. Nobody's asking you to do more and more. Actually, what we need to do is we need to look at what have you got on your plate and how can we look at this feeling of overwhelm for you because for you, whatever it is that we are doing or saying that is creating for you a feeling of overwhelm that you can't achieve, that there's too much on the go for you. So let's analyse that a little bit. So for that individual, it'll be sitting down with them and going, okay, what's on your to-do list?

(13:13):

What is it that your core purpose is for the organisation of that to-do list? What can you invest your time in that's going to enable you to do that? And what can we do with the rest? How can we then either delegate that, ditch that, automate it, do whatever it is? So wellness for me, for that individual is about talking to them. For someone else, it might be that they want an extra day's holiday because they want to have their birthday off every year. So it's understanding what your people in your organisation need and then making an informed decision that is human-centered, but with the eye of your organisation there as well.

Caroline (13:48):

If you're enjoying listening to this show, we'd really appreciate your following and rating SheepDip it wherever you tune into podcasts. And if you've got a burning question, a rising from this show, or there's a topic that you'd like us to cover, simply email me caroline@raisingthebaa.com or send a message through any of our social channels.

Michelle (14:10):

I think the challenge in our people orientated organisation, of which everyone is, as soon as you've got more than one employee you're in a people orientated organisation, right? It's enabling an environment where people can come and talk to you. They can come and say, I need help. And when someone is overwhelmed, they can't see the wood from the trees, right? Because the emotional side of the brain is in there and they're just on churn, panic, whatever it is that's going on in their mind. You know, some people it will manifest itself into aggression or some people they'll go very quiet. Other people, they'll get highly emotional. It's very different for different people. But what there needs to be is someone or someone's line manager as example, just to sit down and go right, breathe, talk to me.

(14:59):

So once they can get the emotional side out of it, then they can kind of take a little bit of a breath down and you can engage the logical side of their brain, which then enables them to look at the stuff they're doing. And I did that probably about six months ago ago for one of my team where she was struggling, her performance was starting to reduce and it's not like her. There was something going on, I couldn't pinpoint what it was, so sat down with her and said, are you okay? She said, what do you mean? And I had a conversation with her: you're not performing as you normally do, there's things that you're doing that wouldn't normally happen, something's just not quite right. Turns out she had a lot of stuff going on at home she didn't realise was affecting her. But actually she was just struggling at work and I said, right, okay, well let's see what we need to do then.

(15:42):

And I said to her, right, tell me a bit about your core purpose. So we don't do job descriptions, we've got the job canvas and the number one box in the job canvas is about your purpose. So, bring up your job canvas. What for ? Bring up your job canvas. She brought it up and I said to her read that to me. So she read it and I said, read it again. She read it. I said, read it again. And she was still looking at me. I said, just do as I'm asking you to do, genuinely four times I made her read it. And I said, right, get your to-do list out and tell me on your to-do list, what is enabling you to do that?

(16:11):

And we're talking about a 15 minute conversation. Within that 15 minute conversation, she went from being overwhelmed to being able to sit down. I didn't even look at her job or to do list with her. She just said to me, I could delegate that one, that one I can just ditch because you know what, or actually I can move that into next month. I could do this, could do that. Okay, what more do you need from me? Nothing. And that's all it was. So for her, wellness and wellbeing was just about being able to vent out what was wrong and feeling supported. And then off she went. I did nothing, nothing for her other than listen and get her focused. That was it.

Chris (16:47):

I want to pick up on a couple of those points. One is when the dog gets overwhelmed, you know, like he's got a big group of sheep, they're all coming towards him. It does one of two things. One, it either flies in and panics the sheep or it will regroup and go backwards. Neither one is what the shepherd wants. And that can be quite disastrous at times, especially if you're moving the sheep down the road, that's when you've got to help somebody out. You know, you've got to help the dog out in one way or another. And that's great when you've got the resources. But actually when you were talking earlier on, it was about covid. What I felt was what I missed was the cup of tea and the piece of cake after shearing. It wasn't the money, it was actually all this social distancing. And actually it wasn't the lack of a real thank you, you know, to go in, have a bit of a yarn, have a cup of coffee, or a cup of tea and a piece of cake, you know, after doing all that hard work was actually for me, it was more valuable than actually the money.

Michelle (17:54):

Human connection.

Chris (17:56):

Yes, exactly. And I think sometimes people lose that connection and they're going, wait a minute, I'm working remotely. I'm not really overanalysing, I'm just feeling everything's coming on top of me. What am I doing? And they're not really interested in the money. They just want to be valued.

Michelle (18:12):

Yep. And you know what's interesting because I've had some interesting debates recently with managers internally and people externally as well, where it's oh, you know, are you telling everybody to come back to the office X amount of time? No. Why not? Because we want to enable choice for people and you know, people will make choices that are best for their family dynamics, for their own personal circumstances, for the work that they do, all of this sort of stuff. But it's about enabling people to have a conversation that helps people to see what's best for them. So I had a manager recently that said, oh, I want the organisation to tell us to come in at least two days a week and then I can have some conversations with my team. What do you mean? And ultimately, at the core of the conversation, she was missing that connection.

(19:01):

That's what she wanted. And she needed. She also felt like she had a couple of people who weren't necessarily performing as she would want them to perform. And I'm saying to her, okay, well how can you recreate that connection then without doing two people and actually them then being really annoyed because they're having to make changes to things that actually work for them. They don't understand why they have to then change that routine that they're in. So you're then creating a barrier to that connection anyway. Yes but essentially I want to hide behind the company saying. Hold on, well you're the line manager, okay, so if you are missing the human connection, why don't you just get your team together on a call or drop them a note and say, I'm missing you. I'd actually quite like for us to get together, when works, do a bit of a doodle poll, organise people to come in and have a bit of an agenda and then create that human connection.

(19:52):

Just be open and vulnerable about it and say I miss it. I'd like for us to be together. Here's the purpose of being together; and then equally the people that are not performing, if you feel like they're not performing, they're unlikely to perform any better when they're sitting in an office. Bear in mind that you're remote as well. So what difference is it going to make? Maybe just have an honest conversation with them to say, I just want to check in. Something's not quite right just now or you're not performing as I would expect, or you're not delivering whatever result it is or whatever the conversation is. And go, tell me a bit more about that.

Chris (20:25):

I totally agree with you. I mean also the interesting part is about the sheep. If you put a sole sheep in one field with no company, you can just tell it's so stressed.

Michelle (20:37):

It's miserable. Miserable, stressed, they'll probably lie down because they can't be bothered, you know, because they're lonely.

Chris (20:44):

Yeah, exactly. And I mean often the challenge is, if you have a sick sheep then you need it to be with the other sheep to help motivate it to want to get better. Oh, my mates are walking off, perhaps I should try and get up and go somewhere. But if you leave them by themselves in a pen, then they just sit there and ...

Michelle (21:06):

There's no motivation to do anything else or nobody to see or lead from. I mean it's interesting, like my daughter, she's 20 now. When I had her, we initially had a child minder who looked after her for a couple of days. And that kind of didn't work out. And I ended up putting her into a nursery and that was more around going, I know that I can put her into nursery every day and if they've got a staffing issue, that's their problem rather than mine. I can still get on with work and there's continuity in structure for her. But you know, I never had to potty train her because she followed all of the other kids. She walked properly because she saw other kids doing it. She wanted to get into one of the other rooms in the nursery. So to do that she had to get up and then she had to go to the toilet herself. She just followed the others and learned from others. If they weren't there, she'd have quite happily sat on her backside and did nothing.

Caroline (21:55):

And I think that, not that I'm comparing a child to somebody who's starting out in their career, but I think we've said this before, one of the things that I think remote working or hybrid working is affecting big time is emerging talent. It's the young talent, isn't it, who are just setting out in their careers who have not got that sort of learning by osmosis that you're describing there. And just those incidental learnings, you know, it's not proper, you know, sit down and learn type training. It's just seeing people do what they need to do it isn't it.

Michelle (22:27):

It's the connection. You know, my niece, she had went to university and graduated during the pandemic, didn't have a job, managed to get a job and it was full-time, full remote. And she did that for a year, loved it, but really struggled with the human connection. And she's now taken up a graduate programme inside another company which is in person five days. And what she's getting out of that is the human connection. It's seeing people every day, it's talking to them. It's learning side by side with someone. And she loved the job that she did remote and they were brilliant and they had great, brilliant structures and check-ins and all of that sort of stuff. But she knew that she wanted to try the human connection part of it. Equally, I know other people who thrive in that remote environment.

(23:13):

And it just goes back to the point that we're all individual needs and wants, For organisations, it's about being very true to who you are and what you do. Enabling people to understand what choices they can make within the confines of your organisation, but the environment that you set that enables them to perform at their best. And as you get bigger and bigger, it's about what structures and hierarchy and roles and responsibilities that have in place. And it's about how can you enable people to perform at their best within your own organisational context, but also being understanding you're not going to be everyone's cup of tea. So some people might just not enjoy it. That's okay, listen, learn, move on to the next. And that's the same for people who are in organisations. Employees have got a choice. You know, nobody's forced to come and work for you.

(24:01):

They choose to come and work for you. And you know, when I first joined five years ago, I made the conscious decision to come in and talk to everybody and I could do, we had 90 employees at the time, so you're not talking thousands and thousands. So it was easy to go around. And we've got remote locations. So I travelled a couple times as well and I just went around and I asked everybody four questions. I didn't give them the four questions in advance. Why do you enjoy working here? What do you not enjoy about working here? If it was your business, what would you change? And then the last one, what's standing in your way? That wrote me my people plan. I didn't have to have all the answers because the people had it.

Chris (24:38):

It's funny to hear that third question, which is, if it was your business, what would you do differently? Because many a time when I've been to people's farms and scratched my head. In fact, when I first started farming, because I was born and bred in London and I thought the best thing to feed sheep is grass. And everybody at the time was feeding concentrates, you know, cake supplement feed, you know, like high energy supplement feed. And I said, no, no, I don't need to do that. I reckon if I just give them grass 365 days a year, I reckon they'll all do perfectly well. And I caught my neighbour shaking a bag of food over the fence to see if my sheep would come to the bag, which is where the food was. And all he was getting was mobbed by his own sheep saying, yeah, yeah, I've got the bag. We know we gotta do it. My sheep just wandered off because they, they didn't know what it was, but it was that realisation that actually everybody's different. Everybody does it a different way. And what you can learn from other people can actually help you and empower you to do other things.

Michelle (25:44):

Oh, absolutely. And make time regularly to talk to other businesses and make time regularly to go to webinars, conferences, whatever it is. The sole purpose is to learn from other people, hear their stories, here's what's on there, and think about what could be useful for our organisation. Because today is the fastest and most volatile the world has ever been, but today is also the slowest and least volatile the world will ever be because every day change is inevitable and that volatility and that complexity is going to be there all of the time. So it's very important to learn from other people. And I find that question of if it was your business, what would you do? Unlocks people's mindsets. Because if they are in the mindset of I am an employee, it's that old school thing of I am being done to, I must do as I'm told.

(26:40):

And certainly in the younger generation, that's not how it is. The way we learn, the way we communicate is massively different now. So actually asking people, if it was yours, what would you do differently? Unlocks that mindset of it's someone else's job, or if someone else has to do it and I'll just sit back and wait, it enables them to go: I think. But they have to feel safe enough to go, I think, or I've got an idea or they never will do. So it's a balancing act.

Caroline (27:09):

And I'm seeing that a lot more in terms of the sort of careers pages, if you like, of companies, big companies saying we encourage an entrepreneurial mindset, which is really refreshing to see. But I think as you say, it's kind of meeting what the need is as well. It just puts you in a totally different place. But you're absolutely right. Giving them the safe space to do that is giving them permission to do it is, is brilliant. I love the four questions. I think that's a really valuable thing. And just as you rightly say a minute ago, you know, learn from other people. And that's really the purpose of the podcast, isn't it? All sorts of podcasts. But that's what we want to do here is to have people listening to this thinking, oh, actually that's just that, you know, one thing takeaway for my big takeaway is those four questions, so thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything else that you think right now that you think, ah, this has been really super helpful for me or for us at IOM that you could share with our listener?

Michelle (28:04):

I think the key thing for me is about authenticity and honesty. You know, you said there you see a lot of big businesses encouraging an entrepreneurial mindset. I think for organisations and particularly for boards who sit in organisations or owners of of businesses, it's do what you say you're going to do and don't try to mask it up, right? So if you say that you want to encourage an entrepreneurial mindset into your business, but people have to do what they're told to do and they're not encouraged to speak or to interact or to be creative, then that's a toxic culture, right? They don't mix. And if you are that kind of autocratic culture and that's who you are then just own that and say that's what it is. And equally, if you want, you're super creative, it's super entrepreneurial. There are very little processes and systems and you know, you'll be coming in, you'll be creating all of that stuff then, then be honest and open about it. And because people, they work for people. So you have to do what you say you're going to do and you have to be who you are to enable you to then ....

Chris (29:05):

It's very interesting when we do our exercise with the sheep. I always say to people, you've got to get in the mindset of the sheep, not the mindset what you think they should do. You know, they've got to look at the sheep to get them in the pen, to get them to be in the mindset to make the pen the safest place.

Michelle (29:24):

You're absolutely right because the journey that you've walked is completely different to mine. So what I think, I believe, I feel may not be what you think, you believe or you feel. That doesn't make us, all it does is makes us different. And when you come together, you're then a powerhouse because you've got those two views that you can bring together that then enable you to make an informed decision. And that's exactly it. But even when we are doing different things or we're making changes, I don't make that change based on my needs or wants. I make those changes based on what's needed at the coalface at that front end. What is it that the people need or want? How are we doing that? I was working with our IT team recently and they're brilliant at making technology work. What they're not very good at is thinking about it when it then goes to the end user in their own areas. But then when you bring the operators and the tech guys together, the product and the system and the processes and the instructions and the training that you write is phenomenal because you've got those two different heads. IT solve the problem. The operators then take this solution, but make it work for them.

Caroline (30:30):

Fantastic. Now we're going to be wrapping up shortly, but I have got one last question for you with regards to, I mean obviously what you know we're all about is gathering teams together, luring people away from that very technology that you're just talking about and getting them out into the fresh air. In our instance, it's herding sheep. But regardless of what activity it is, what do you feel for you is the benefit of getting people out of their working situation, whatever that is? Getting together to do, you know, something like we do, what do you think the real benefits are?

Michelle (31:00):

So it is, it's human connection, it's room to breathe and it's creativity and innovation. So I've got, my team are all together on Thursday for exactly the same reason. So some of my team work here in Edinburgh, some are remote, some work in some of our other offices. We consciously make the decision to come together every quarter at least. More if we need it or it's useful. But at at least once a quarter we come together physically. And the reason for that is so that we can just chew the fat, we can see and hear what's going on in each other's worlds. We can share ideas, you know, do exercises and things with them. And that's just to get them away from the day-to-day ground and get them to look up and out, but also to reconnect together as a group. So for me it's, you will never, ever replace the value of human connection, but you can blend it together in whatever context that you have.

Caroline (32:02):

That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing all those thoughts with us Michelle. We have a quick fire round at the end, which is just three short, sharp questions. Don't need too much thinking about, just end on a bit of fun really. So what's your favourite film?

Michelle (32:16):

My favourite film is Shawshank Redemption.

Caroline (32:18):

Why is that?

Michelle (32:19):

I love the story. The suffering, the resilience, the success towards the end. I just love it. It's just a, oh, it just gives me goosebumps every time I watch it.

Chris (32:30):

If you had a large piece of land, what would you do with it?

Michelle (32:34):

If I had a large piece of land, I would get a hot tub. I would have dogs and chickens and goats.

Caroline (32:42):

No sheep? No, just goats.

Michelle (32:45):

I don't even know why chickens and goats to be honest. It's just the thinking of a large piece of land. What would I do with it? Goats are smaller than sheep I think. And I would need to have less. I'm quite lazy as well. So whatever it would be easy for me to tend to and manage.

Caroline (33:06):

And let's go back to seven or eight year old Michelle. What did you want to be when you grew up?

Michelle (33:11):

Oh, do you know that is, I didn't have the greatest of upbringings actually. A part of the outreach stuff that I do is because of the challenges I had when I was younger. But I remember in school we were one of the first schools to have an electric typewriter. So I was going to work in an office and be a secretary is what I was going to do. When I went to high school or secondary school, we were the first group in our school to have office and information studies. So that was quite exciting at that time. And even now, this, the skill that I learned out of those classes was touch typing. And I use that every day in my work that's there.

Caroline (33:49):

Brilliant. Okay. So thank you so much, Michelle, for your time today. It's been really interesting to hear everything from your perspective. We haven't had an Institute represented, so that's been really refreshing. So thank you and enjoy the rest of your week.

Michelle (34:04):

Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Hopefully people will find that useful.

Caroline (34:08):

Thank you for listening today. What was your biggest takeaway or insight? Let us know on any of our social channels. We'd really love to know. Till next time, have a baa-rilliant week.

Chris (34:20):

Bye for now.

Caroline (34:21):

Bye Michelle.

Michelle (34:22):

Bye.